Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to Faithful Foundations , a podcast by Baptist Financial Services . We're here to equip church and ministry leaders with practical wisdom and insights through sharing the experiences , challenges and strategies from Christian ministries across Australia . Let's build on the Faithful Found foundations for thriving ministry together .

Speaker 2 0:25

Well hi , ruth . It's great to be here in your workspace and maybe , if you can just describe where we are here , in Ashfield and what's going on around us .

Speaker 3 0:43

Sure , yeah , thank you . In Ashfield and what's going on around us ? Sure , yeah , thank you . Yes , ncls Research at the moment is being welcomed and housed by Ashfield Baptist Church , so we don't know how long we'll be here , but it's really lovely to be in this space because we're located next to the wonderful Ashfield community , which is a beautiful multicultural community , which makes going out for staff lunches very exciting if they're willing to try the next restaurant down the road .

Speaker 3 1:11

We have next to us a childcare centre being run by IntegraCare . We have our church offices . We have an op shop . We have a group home for young men who have arrived in the city and need somewhere to stay for a period of time . There's a blessing box just outside the front and that blessing box was started during COVID as sort of a response of going what can we do ? We need to do something now , and what was a little old wardrobe is now a beautiful fridge , proper cupboard and is a blessing to everybody those who give and those who receive . There's a church , there's a hall , we have lion dancing not line dancing we have drumming workshops , we have various community groups Alcoholics , anonymous groups , all sorts of community groups use the space as well .

Speaker 2 2:03

So it's a really well-utilised space isn't it ?

Speaker 3 2:06

Yes , indeed , amazing .

Speaker 2 2:08

Well , given that we've got children next door in the childcare centre , that's a little bit of a cue for me to ask you about your experiences as a child and really thinking about the formative influences , experiences that you had that have helped shape you , and maybe a little bit of reflection on what it was like being a missionary kid

Formative Years as a Missionary Kid

Speaker 2 2:30

.

Speaker 3 2:30

Yes , okay , yeah , my mum was a missionary . She was a young woman who went to the mission department of what was the Methodist Church of the time and said I think the Lord's calling me to the mission field . And they went go away , you're too young . And she came back a year later , at the age of 22 , and said the Lord's still calling me . And they went , all right , and they decided that northern Australia in an Indigenous community was not suitable for a young woman . So they sent her to the southern highlands of Papua New Guinea , which was the first place that she was the first white woman that some people had even seen in that time . So she arrived after some years as a teacher . She came back and married my father , who is a Methodist minister , who became a Uniting Church minister , and they both had a sense of call to go back to the mission field . So at the age of one I went up to Papua New Guinea .

Speaker 3 3:23

So the first 10 years of my life I experienced being a missionary kid and that , I think , has been very formative for me and I often reflect on it . I can see the threads , the influence of that time in my life in a number of ways . One of them would be that what I saw as a kid you sort of it's it's normal , so , but what I saw was a multicultural mission community . I saw the people who were my neighbors and who shared life with me and my family came from all around the world because this thing that they had to share mattered . So I saw that the power of the good news was enough to make you leave your home , your family and to go somewhere to share . So that was just normal for me . The community of being able to walk into any door and be bathed and fed and sent back to mum and dad , you know , was normal for me . The collective gathering of a faith community . That good news I also saw in the local people . So I saw the impact of what they heard as good news and what it taught me is what is the gospel ? So when you think about we want to share the gospel .

Speaker 3 4:34

The good news what I saw was in that culture . There were two pieces of good news that really stuck through . One was this is imagine a people for whom they believe in the spirits of their ancestors impacting on their life , often for ill . So disease or chaos or crops failing or something was because of an ancestor's spirit . So the good news for them was we want to tell you about a Holy Spirit that is more powerful than the spirit of your ancestors that bring fear to your life , and that was a message of freedom and release that I saw in just in everyday , normal activities , you know , and the things that they released from their lives that bound them in fear . So that was good news . The second good news that I saw in that cultural context , which makes me think about how the gospel is in relationship with culture .

Speaker 3 5:37

The second piece of good news was how powerful and true it is that in Christ there is no male nor female , jew nor Gentile , because this is a culture where the order , the power order , is man , boy , pigs , women , many wives . So this is a culture where , you know , yes , the women are the property of the men and you have multiple wives to show how powerful you are , how rich you are , et cetera . And my mum was invited to be , like you know , the sixth wife of various people , which was quite fun . I think you know they were very unimpressed by the gold band that she came back to say that she was betrothed and was going to marry . They're going . What is this rubbish ? Where are your pigs ? Where's your you know pearl shell ? Where's your bride price ? This is rubbish . This man does not value you . He's not taking care of you .

Speaker 5 6:33

Not taking care of you exactly .

Speaker 3 6:35

But in that culture , where that's the structure and that's the norm , it was the women who came to faith first .

Speaker 3 6:49

It was the women who heard the good news that in Christ there is no male nor female , and heard the good news and they were the ones who were baptised first . And we went back in 2011 , which was 60 years , 50 years since my mum had first gone up , and I met again older women who said to me , as a woman who brought her kids back , you know , said to me I'm a leader , I'm a leader in my church . Your mother taught me , taught me the Bible , and she did it using stick figures , told the Bible stories , because this is an illiterate community , but the women , with their oral culture , went back over the mountain to the next valleys , taught and retaught the stories and they were the evangelists . They were the women who shared into those communities and , from their position , were transformed . Wow . So the men came as well , but the women were actually the evangelists . So for me , as a woman , it's a very powerful story and holding that in Christ there is no male nor female and as a woman , I have a place and a role in the church .

Speaker 2 8:00

Fantastic . So if we turn to , I guess , the experience you've had over many years in a national research organisation , a Christian organisation , ncls research you've been exposed to so many stories as well

Faith and Culture in Australian Churches

Speaker 2 8:16

as the stats around churches . It would be interesting to hear what you think about the connection between faith and culture in churches broadly across Australia , what you've observed both through stories , case studies , but also what are the stats telling us about how that's been worked through .

Speaker 3 8:36

Yeah Well , when I hear culture , you can obviously hear that I'm impacted by understanding how context matters , and part of when you do research is you go . What we're saying is you need to understand your context , and that comes from saying to love your neighbour is to listen well and to understand , and so doing a survey at its heart is a listening exercise to your neighbour , to your colleague , to your friend , so that you understand better , so you hear from them , so you need to understand your context . What's changing ? What's different ? Don't think things are like they used to be . So that's one piece .

Speaker 3 9:16

Culture then comes in that mix and I'm going to think about culture in a couple of ways , make a couple of comments . Culture , from one point of view , is we all have culture . So sometimes we use culture to mean those people who are not like us and probably are brown . You know they're the cult , you know you go the multicultural . They're not multicultural . You know it's a ridiculous thing to say , but it's this when we say culture one , we all have a culture . We all are shaped by the culture we're in and it's very important .

Speaker 3 9:47

So when I look at a church and I look at a healthy church , for example , whether it's a local church or a national church , you can see the culture and you can see in the culture . And there's a saying culture eats strategy for breakfast , right ? So the culture is deep and imagine it's like an iceberg where at the top you can change things . You know you can change visible symbols and things like that , but culture is that iceberg under the water , very hard to see , very hard to change , very important and powerful . So every group has a culture , the way we do things around here , the way things are , and it's often implicit . So a healthy church has a healthy culture . That can be very varied , can look like anything on the surface , doesn't matter . Can be traditional , contemporary , doesn't matter , but the culture is . Is this a place where people feel included and welcome ?

Speaker 3 10:43

Is this a place where they feel they can belong and make a contribution ? Is this a place that helps people me and us thrive ?

Speaker 3 10:54

So , you're looking for the cultural clues around that . So that's one culture piece faith and culture . The other comment I'd want to make around culture is I'll go to cultural diversity , by which we mean ethnic diversity . Often we use it as a term to mean ethnic diversity . So let me specifically talk about ethnic diversity and say I think Australia is one of the most multicultural nations in the world . Luxembourg tries to beat us in terms of people born not in Luxembourg , but I'm going honestly . You know it's so tiny and they're just over the border and you know . So I'm going . We still want to . And Switzerland also claims to be more than us , but we're right up there right America's superior .

Speaker 3 11:34

Yeah , that's right , we're really multicultural .

Speaker 3 11:37

Demographics don't lie . So as a demographic statement , australia is one of the most multicultural , perhaps the most multicultural nation in the world . Right , that's extraordinary . Churches are incredibly multicultural , and that is in a range of ways , both in terms of our ethnic backgrounds , but also when you come to congregations . You can have congregations which have a strong monoculture which is from your ethnic background , but you can also have multicultural churches which Australian churches have more than America , more than perhaps any other country in the world .

Speaker 3 12:15

I haven't found another country with more multicultural churches , and that means we have places where people who have different ethnic backgrounds are meeting , gathering around the common ground of seeking to follow Jesus . And I'm going . If you want a thriving community society , what a wonderful thing that the church offers and can lead the way in in terms of a multicultural vision . So that's my part of my hope and dream for the church that they embrace a multicultural reality . You can hear my childhood flavour coming through though going . That's normal . If I go to a part of Sydney or somewhere else where everybody looks the same , I find it a bit frightening . And if there's only white bread on , offer that's a bit scary too .

Speaker 5 13:03

A bit bland . Yeah , that's really interesting because from an early age you were already seeing the trends , so to speak , and obviously that is a key skill in what you do at NCLS . So what led you to be drawn to the role at NCLS ? Can you give us a bit of an insight into the journey in where you're at today ?

Speaker 3 13:26

Yeah , it's a simple story in some ways . I got to I did a Bachelor of Arts with Honours in Psychology at Australian National University and I got to the end of my arts degree and went , oh crumbs , what can I do ? And I thought , well , I know , I've just done an honours degree , so I know how to run a research project and I really enjoyed that . So I know how to , you know , collect data , analyse it , write it up . And that was a . I think I'm quite good at that . So I know , I think I like doing research .

Speaker 3 13:56

And then I went well , I've been part of the church my whole life . I think I know something about church , so who's doing church research ? So I wrote to the Christian Research Association and I wrote to

NCLS Research Journey and Impact

Speaker 3 14:07

NCLS Research's first director , peter Calder , and said hi , I'm here , I'm a graduate and I'd like a job . And they both went we've got no money . But then a little while later , a research assistant went on maternity leave and they contacted me and said would you like to apply ? And , with gratitude to Peter and whoever else interviewed me , I don't even recall who it was they selected me for my youth and enthusiasm , not my experience and skills . And there were way more skilled people who applied for that role and they gave it to me so fast forward . What is it 35 years now ? I became director in 2007 and here I still am Amazing .

Speaker 3 14:53

So , give a young person a go if they look enthusiastic .

Speaker 5 14:58

It's not a bad litmus test .

Speaker 2 15:00

I'm smiling at Peter at this point .

Speaker 5 15:02

I'm trying not to infer anything . That's great , and you have a huge body of work . I'm fanboying a little bit because for the last seven or eight years I've been reading a lot of the publications that NCLS has put out , but I wanted to ask you what was the piece of work that you're most proudest of or you feel like you're the most fondest of ?

Speaker 3 15:30

Oh crumbs . That's an interesting question . We actually have , I'll mention , one set of work , which is we do have a lot of work on multicultural issues which is buried actually at the moment that you haven't seen because it's not open source yet and I'm just waiting for it to sort of be allowed to Give me the link when it is , please .

Speaker 3 15:50

That's right . It's sort of buried in these editions of book chapters and things like that and I'm going . I'd love that to come public because that's I've gone . This is such a key area for the church I want to invest time into it , two areas . One is cultural diversity going . We have to understand that . Look at that .

Speaker 3 16:07

And see how that works . And the second one is generational change , which is what my PhD was on , and looking at generational cohorts , and I can say more about that . The piece perhaps I'm most proud of is a piece of work that was commissioned by the Anglican Church of Australia and it was on domestic violence , intimate partner violence , in the context of Anglican churches . And firstly I want to say they have been the bravest denomination to actually do that , to be willing to take a look at a very difficult issue , and they hoped it would come out okay for them .

Speaker 3 16:45

It didn't and it wouldn't for any church , but they were brave enough to do it anyway . And so that was a piece of work where we listened to the experiences of people , mostly women , who have been part of Anglican churches . They may not all be still , but they've had a connection with an Anglican church . They've had an experience of intimate partner violence , and the work was around how did faith and your church , your Anglican church , help and hinder in your experience ? And we also worked with Anglican ministers to find out their experiences and what they had done , and we interviewed people who were victim survivors as well , and so we also did a study which was sort of the prevalence of intimate partner violence , domestic violence in communities . And the very difficult thing to say to the Anglican church which I know would be the case in other churches is it is present .

Speaker 3 17:46

It is present in your churches and you have to just own that and , to their credit , while they did push back and they didn't want to hear that difficult news , they have actually embraced it and they are working towards better policies , better practices and actually naming . This is something we have to deal with and it happens within our faith communities and some things we do within our faith communities do not help .

Speaker 3 18:09

So I know the names and the faces of those women mostly , and I can never tell anybody who they are but I've given them voice and I've been able to be the messenger on their behalf to a church that has been humble and courageous enough to listen and to act , so that's probably the one I'm most proud of .

Speaker 5 18:31

Wow , Thanks Ruth .

Speaker 2 18:35

Sometimes research is surprising . It turns up things you didn't expect to find , and I'm interested to learn if there's one or two examples you can offer of a finding that stood out to you , maybe recent years or going back a little while .

Speaker 3 18:50

Yeah , sure , sure . There's this fun moment when you run your analysis and it's about to flick up on the screen and I've often had the feeling of going no one knows and no one has seen this result before , and I'm going to see it for the first time . I'm the one that's going to know .

Speaker 3 19:10

I'm the first one to know how much it is . You know , so your intuition tells you a lot , and so what I'm often looking for is for that to be confirmed , because I'm going , I have a lot of sources of knowledge , and we all do , and so you often do know . So people will sometimes say , oh , I already knew that , and I go yeah , you have other sources that tell you , but you didn't know how much . And we tell you how big this issue is .

Speaker 3 19:37

And you can talk about it , but we'll tell you how much . So

Current Church Trends and Challenges

Speaker 3 19:40

there's always surprises , there's things people didn't know , and partly we go look , you only know this in Australia because we've been running this for 35 years . Other countries don't know these things . So you go oh , I know that about the church . That's because we told you , that's because we told you .

Speaker 3 19:55

That's because we all worked together , we did the research together and we told you . So that's how you know . You didn't know before . So there's always been surprises , and I think , again , it's the listening . You don't know whether your people in your churches feel they belong unless you ask them . You don't know if they're growing in their faith unless you ask them . Are they committed to the vision ? You have to ask them , you have to listen . Those are things that should always be , maybe not surprises , but you should always listen . Let me give you one example of a surprise , though , which , after this long I'm going , it's pretty hard to surprise me , though I can pretty well . You know , I know the church and I know the dirty , you know the dirty laundry , I know where the bodies are buried and all the rest of it . And that's part of this role has been you've got to love the church , you've got to love the diversity of it .

Speaker 3 20:44

Even when they drive you crazy and even when they hurt you , you still can't do this job without loving the whole diverse church . The surprise that came up recently was I had a call from an abc young abc journalist and she said I've read in the new york times this um finding that generation z young males are coming back to christianity , coming back to churches . Is that true in australia ? I don't . I don't think so , you know . Firstly , women are more religious than men . That's true in every country , in every religion , always has been . You know , women are more religious than men . You're telling me men are more religious . I don't know . Secondly , young people are the ones who are saying I don't identify with religion , I'm not going to church . And you're telling me young men . And I said but let me have a look . I'm curious , Can I have a look at our data ?

Speaker 3 21:42

And one of the things we do is we run the National Church Life Survey , which is about churches . But every year we run an Australian community survey as well , and that is listening to Australians about their spirituality . So I said let me go check that data out , Analyzed it , Blow me down . She was right , Not quite like the US , but what we found was . Young men in their 20s are more likely than young women to say they are Christian and to say they are attending churches not every month , not every week , that's . Young men and women are the same at that level , but they are more likely to be orbiting churches and go . Yeah , I go . I go a few times a year , I go . You know they're saying that they're part of church communities more than women . Young women are still more likely to have spiritual experiences , to pray more , to be open to something you know like that there is a God .

Speaker 3 22:41

So women are more religious than men in some ways , but the young women are the ones rejecting the institutional church and the young men are orbiting . So very interesting . We could spend the whole time just talking about that , but that was a surprise that it turned up in the Australian data as clearly as it did .

Speaker 2 23:03

Fantastic .

Speaker 5 23:04

Do you have some broad ? I don't want to sound reductive because that's the problem with the research that tends to happen there . There's a broad piece of work and , as you said , context matters , but sometimes people want to hear the throughlines or the headlines right and it ends up being a little bit redu happen there . There's a broad piece of work and , as you said , context matters , but sometimes people want to hear the through lines or the headlines right , and it ends up being a little bit reductive there . But for the sake of time in this podcast , do you have some broad trends that you're seeing in the last five years with regards to our churches that you feel like churches should hear or at least start understanding on their own ?

Speaker 3 23:36

hear or at least start understanding on their own . So it's a big one , it's a tricky one . In the last few years , since we started the survey , which is now 30 years ago , it's like we come and do it every five years . This national snapshot and here's my big arc of what I've seen happen . 1991 , we do the first survey and we go hey , folks , things are changing . And they all go what , what ? And they sort of ignore us . By 1996 , we go do you want to do this again ? And they did , and we go folks , things are really changing and they're starting to run around like chooks with their heads chopped off , going oh no , what do we do ?

Speaker 3 24:20

What do we do ? Don't panic , don't panic . You know , and there's this sort of energy oh , maybe we'll do fresh expressions , we'll do this thing , we'll try this alternative worship , we'll try , you know , and there's this experimenting , and you know that kind of yeah , yeah , move forward , 2001 . Folks , this is where we're at now . The mood is shut up . We don't want to hear Stop telling us it hurts . We don't want to hear Move through the 2000s . What we get is okay . We're facing the reality now that things are changing . So the church's role in society in the last decades has just shifted so dramatically . During the 60s and 70s . It's when young people started leaving the church and they didn't come back . What has happened , I think coming through is I see now and look , covid then escalated it . So we're now sitting going . Well , covid was like took trends that were happening and just escalated them . So it was a disruption , but it was more an escalation . Things that were already happening , like the decline , just happened quicker , or the thing that was going to probably close just got closed quicker .

Speaker 3 25:31

So basically two NCLS sort of iterations from now just happened straight away with COVID .

Speaker 3 25:37

Yeah . So it sort of escalated there when I think we're sitting now and I'll maybe talk more about it later but in terms of what's happening in the last season , what we have is a smaller church . We have a church that is saying we're quite happy , we actually like church , we like what we're doing , we like our worship , we feel good . Here there's a little bit of oh well , thank goodness we've got rid of that dead wood that they don't come anymore , which I find appalling . You know that attitude , but it's like we like how we're doing things here .

Speaker 3 26:20

So what's happening is there's , I'm sad to say , there's a turning inward . There's a turning inward and there's a focus on just there's a withdrawal . That has happened in some ways and that is because of some of the trends of going . Society doesn't like you so much anymore . Society doesn't accept you . Your place is not just guaranteed and

Data, Faith and Leadership Wisdom

Speaker 3 26:44

you've got to rethink your place in society .

Speaker 3 26:46

The role of the church , and when you throw in things like a royal commission around responses to child sexual abuse , you throw in a plebiscite around same-sex marriage , you throw in moral failure of Christian leaders , there's a whole lot of reasons society can rightfully say you've let us down , we are not impressed , we don't trust you , and the church has got to take that on the chin as well . So it feels like a time of withdrawal turning inward , of withdrawal turning inward . And now we sit on the precipice of deciding what to do and I see some evidence which is wonderful , of collaboration , of different traditions actually working together , trusting each other , and that is wonderful . But it's going to be challenging to see what happens next , I think .

Speaker 2 27:43

No crystal ball Ruth . If we just start with that image of being on the edge of a precipice .

Speaker 3 27:52

I don't like heights , so I'll stand back a little bit from it .

Speaker 2 27:54

But we are there in many ways . I can stand back a little bit from it , but we are there in many ways as a researcher and a Christian leader . How do you see ? The interplay between faith and wisdom moving its way through in terms of how we make decisions as leaders . Yeah , what's the place ? Of data and facts and so on , as well as faith .

Speaker 3 28:15

Look , it's a challenging one . Obviously , I'm a person of faith and I'm a social scientist , so I have no issue holding it together . When we started , one of the responses we got from doing our research was I don't think it's appropriate to do research . You know , what we need to do is more faithful , and there's something I think in the Bible that says you shouldn't count things or something . I don't know . What we need to do is more faithful , and there's something I think in the bible that says you shouldn't count things or something . I don't know what that is and but there's this vibe of no , that doesn't feel godly . So we just need to pray more and pray harder and be faithful , was the message . I don't well , I haven't heard that for decades . I've now maybe there's a little bit of that again coming back .

Speaker 3 28:55

But there's now a sense of we have to know and each time we've said , do you want to do the National Church Life Survey again , our leaders , our church leaders , have said we have to know . It doesn't go away If we put our head in the sand . It doesn't change the reality , and there's certainly many leaders who've now embraced the reality that you , as a leader , sometimes you have to face the brutal facts , and it's a saying that you know from the business literature as well . But there's a point where you've got to face the facts . You can be optimistic and hopeful and strategic and plan and all the rest of it and have deep faith , but there's a moment and sadly for me , I'm the one that provides the brutal facts sometimes . You know , there's a role in our values as an organisation where we not only we try and be credible , we try and be unifying , we try and be vital , but we also are prophetic , and that's where we speak the truth , even when it's uncomfortable because it's true . So when I describe the landscape , I go look , this is just how it is . It doesn't mean as a leader . Then where the faith comes in , I think , is saying no , firstly , god is in control . In the end , god is God and God will do whatever God wants . That's a wonderful sort of you know point where you just go . I can leave this .

Speaker 3 30:22

But data becomes another source of wisdom . Alongside tradition and other learnings and your intuition and your experience , data is one source of knowledge . So it's a bit silly not to actually pick it up as a tool and use it . It shouldn't replace anything else . Your wisdom is formed from many sources , but data should be one of them . And you know , the most healthy , effective churches are not afraid of evaluating , they're not afraid of being accountable to the goals and visions they set and to check in and go . Well , how are we going ? Oh , we need to do a course correction . So , rather than seeing it as a report card that they've failed on , they go oh no , this is exactly what I need to know , because I need to attend to this part of our church life . So those are . I know that effective leaders and effective churches bring their faith , wisdom , data

Cultural Diversity in Thriving Churches

Speaker 3 31:20

into that mix .

Speaker 5 31:22

You have this multidisciplinary approach towards understanding your trajectory in the future . Speaking of trajectory , what does the data show that makes you feel the most optimistic about our churches in Australia in the next five to ten years ?

Speaker 3 31:44

I'll say what makes me feel optimistic . I'm afraid the data bothers me at the moment .

Speaker 3 31:50

I'm more concerned about what I see now than I have been in the past . What I see the trends say is and here's the story I could tell you right , because this is all true higher levels of belonging than ever before , higher growth in faith than ever before , higher commitment to the vision for the future than ever before . Sounds fantastic . This is great , but , as I've said , I feel like there's signs of a concentration effect happening . We're withdrawing , we're turning in . We love our crowd , we love what we do here . This is really great . The people there are happier , more concentrated .

Speaker 3 32:28

What I also see is when we reach out , we do things based in our churches . We start our own things , which is maybe fine , but we're not necessarily joining the community in partnership . We're starting our own version of the thing . That's okay sometimes , but I'm worried that we're again bringing everything in-house . We're a bit scared of what they don't like us or they may not say nice things about us , so we'll just do our own version of whatever that activity is .

Speaker 3 32:56

That's one challenge . The big , frightening one that I've seen over now years is we are not inviting people to church . We have lost our confidence and again , lots of good reasons why , lots of good reasons why we wouldn't be confident . We're not inviting and people come because people invite them . People join faith communities because of relationship and trust or because they're curious and the place that they come to is welcoming , hospitable , inclusive , helps and build relationships . So the fact that we're not inviting then links to the fact that we have much fewer newcomers without a church background in our churches .

Speaker 3 33:39

So I'm going this for a missional organisation , missionary kid going . We need to be all about mission here . We have become less missional . So that's the hard message that I'm sharing . Optimistic-wise , I'm going again . I see collaboration across faith traditions . That's wonderful and inspiring . I see an energy around new activities , new wineskins , a season for church planting again , which means there's a chance to do things in new ways as well . That's encouraging . But I think there's a posture again . Where will we as a church build a thing and say we hope you come to our thing . You're going to have to make it over the wall , but we hope you come because we've built this new thing for you . Or will we take a truly missional posture that is , a go , go make disciples .

Speaker 3 34:40

And I don't know yet .

Speaker 5 34:43

The data hasn't said anything definitive about it yet .

Speaker 3 34:46

Yes , because I'm just seeing there's fewer newcomers than there used to be . So we are less open than we used to be . We have less new people . So that's where I get very excited about these Generation Z young males orbiting . So I'm going . They're orbiting and I know from our community data Australians are curious . They may have left the identity of being Christian behind , but they have not turned from spirituality . They are curious , they are soft , they are warm and we need to actually go . That's the optimism to go . They're right there . They are curious , they are soft , they are warm and we need to actually go . That's the optimism to go . They're right there . What are you doing ? Stop turning inwards , turn outwards and actually help that curiosity flourish .

Speaker 2 35:28

So they're open to an invitation .

Speaker 3 35:29

They are , they are and the younger ones are more open . You know who's least open ? Generations X , which is my generation Most hostile , least likely to pray , to go to church , to do anything , and the ones in leadership at the moment .

Speaker 5 35:45

Well , for our audience , give us a rundown of the generations and their various propensities . What does that sort of look like in your research , in the community or in the church ?

Speaker 3 35:56

Both , actually I'm pretty curious myself . Yeah , well , in the I'll do the church first . In the church , if we broadly divide up our baby builders , those who are born pre-World War II , they make up in a lot of churches , they make up the majority of the church and they are faithful , they are loyal they are reliable and stable and they continue to serve well beyond the times when they want to .

Speaker 3 36:26

And I think for some of that generation . I mean my mum's , 86 . She still plays the piano . She's in the community garden . She's part of the community pantry . She's running a Bible study in Easter time . She does the piano . She's in the community garden . She's part of the community pantry . She's running a Bible study in Easter time . She does the flowers . She's , you know , she preaches , she's still going . 86 , still going .

Speaker 3 36:44

My great-grandmother , 89 , was running a women's fellowship every week with , you know , 100 women and kids and was told you have to stop now . So particularly the women , again , that generation of faithful , hardworking women and the church is built on volunteer women actually getting things done . So there's a lot of churches who miss women who are in the workforce now and not as available . So that's that generation . Baby boomers in the church , the ones who who've stayed , like a lot of boomers left right , there's the the 1960s baby boomers left . The ones who stayed , I'm going to say , are , um , perhaps a little more conservative , more stable , look a bit more like the baby builders because they've actually stayed with the organization . They , they've stayed with the . You know they're doing the jobs now and they're that kind of .

Speaker 5 37:41

There's a succession that's happened .

Speaker 3 37:42

Yeah , generation X my generation is the missing one who are in leadership now but sort of very quickly get overpassed , you know , because it's never been about them , us , you know . So you've got the same pattern , though , of going . How do you pass on to the next generation ? So the younger ones in churches are found in particular movements . Pentecostals have more young people . Certainly , our mono , non-anglo churches and our multicultural churches are younger . So again , there's an energy there , there's something to harness , which I would go focus there . Look where the power , the strength and opportunity is in those churches , in the young people that are there . But it's perhaps , in some places , a more conservative young generation inside the church , right ? So again you feel then , that concentration effect , um , where we don't have enough diversity to be fully inclusive , because those who've stayed tend to be more conservative . Um , in a range of ways , just even just I'm loyal to an institution and I go every week .

Speaker 3 38:49

I'm reliable , I'm a you know , and I know from personality types work that we've done sort of personality profiles . You know church attenders are much more likely to be introverted . They're much more likely to be people who like systems and order and structure , and so your intuitive creatives are less represented in church life and find it an uncomfortable place to be . So there's lots of reasons that go on there .

Speaker 2 39:23

That's good . Can we turn to your journey as a leader again ? It's been really helpful to think about the challenges ahead for us . What are you aware of in terms of lessons learned or advice given , maybe as a young adult ? So those early years , university , finding your way Was there a piece of advice that kind of comes back to you every now and then and you think , yes , I need to keep hearing that ?

Speaker 3 39:55

In the simplest terms , I would summarise it as you're okay , have a go . And I think again , it's my experience as a young woman in the church , knowing that not all churches embrace young women in leadership . I knew I was a leader . I'm an oldest child , so it sort of comes with the territory , maybe . So why so ? Oldest children tend to be , and ministers' kids tend to be , leaders .

Speaker 3 40:29

You know , statistically , you know , prime ministers , and leaders , so it's like , oh well , I'm just you know . Prime ministers , yeah so . And leaders , so it's like , oh well , I'm just you know , that's the path . So sort of that was like a well , yeah , of course I'm likely to lead , you know , and uh , but my experience was , firstly , the stories of my family told to me were always um , you , you are loved .

Speaker 3 40:53

I have the incredible blessing of generations of Christian family who and I know my family are historians and they tell the stories . So we have the stories of these faithful women and men and the things they did and the way they served and the way they loved and the way they sacrificed throughout . I have , you know , my great-grandmother the leader , my mother the leader , like I have the stories of women as leaders in the church . Even in churches where you may not have had the official roles , it didn't matter . So it doesn't matter , you lead . You lead in your space , you lead with what you have and all the rest of it . So that was and my dad as a you know 15 , the images of him as a 15 year old on his scooter , driving around , riding around Sydney to go preaching at different places . Given that opportunity , my mum became a lay preacher , as a young woman went as a missionary , you know .

Speaker 3 41:47

So being young shouldn't stop you . So I know I was told that like , get on with it , what are you waiting for ? And I've said it to my own children , who have this now . There's a bit of a oh , you need to go out and get experience , you need to be old enough and all the rest of it . And I say to them and their grandparents told them as well you are not too young , you go out and you have a go and look at the Bible . Look at all the young people in the Bible there . You know . And look at the Bible , look at all the young people in the Bible . You know there's your model of young people being given a go and told get on with it , there's no need to wait . So there's that young enthusiasm . Also , you don't realise what can't be done .

Speaker 5 42:24

as well You've got no life experience . There's no limitations , no limitations .

Speaker 3 42:28

I can do this , I know better , and so there's that energy that comes with that and going release that . So you're okay , you are loved . You know I'm so loved by my family , my extended family , my siblings , my parents , my husband , who , you know , 100% backs me and has always backed me and believes in me more than anybody else .

Speaker 3 42:45

You know , anything I do he thinks is great . But that gives you such great confidence , doesn't it Like ? I know what a gift that is . And then the have a go is , you know well , when we were young and we went oh , we don't have a youth group , let's start a youth group , let's start a thing for young adults . We don't have a young adults group . So from the beginning it's like , let's try something new . And those around me went yeah , go for it . They made me an elder when I was 19, . You know , in my church , Good grief , grief , you know . But now it's like yeah I .

Speaker 2 43:17

I was told you can lead , so I've had that opportunity all the way through . That's fantastic . If you think about um , those decisions you make to take up opportunities as a young person , it's probably courage is a quality that's coming through . You're not only a researcher , but you're a ceo of organisation that , like most Christian organisations , there's never enough money to do the things you want to do In your role . How do you see courage being called on in terms of how you lead and how you think about challenges that are facing NCLS .

Speaker 3 43:54

Yes , I have been thinking probably more about courage in the last few years than previously and I have discovered about myself . One is I'm a loyal person . You don't know that until you've been in the same job for 35 years or married to the same boy you met when you were 15 , you know decades later . So I'm loyal and there's a strength in that . The courage part , then , is I don't want this to come out wrong , but it's like don't expect anybody to value faithfulness and loyalty , they don't . They don't expect anybody to value faithfulness and loyalty they don't , they don't . And maybe it's again I think of the many women who are not in key role , not visible , but have been faithful and loyal and served with the gifts and talents and skills that they've had . So part of my courage has had to be I'm okay , whatever happens here in my work role , if it goes , I'm okay . My worth is not my job , my worth is not what I do here . My worth is I'm a child of God and everybody who loves me and knows me says I'm okay .

Speaker 3 45:09

There's that core self-understanding , which , again , is that deep Christian message that you are made in the image of God . I am important . So there's a courage that comes from hanging on to that worth , that self-worth and going . There's a courage in going . People keep telling you oh , we love what you do , not enough to actually give you any resources , but we love it . So the courage to continue to get up and try again and say again and go again , and the courage to just fight for it , because no one else will , you know , like you . Sort of . It's very isolating . Often as a leader you go . In the end the buck stops with me . No one else is going to work harder than I will work for this . And so it takes courage to keep turning up , to keep asking , to keep trying , take the knockbacks , go again , go again .

Speaker 3 46:11

So there's a mix . I think there's also a courage for me . Where I've gone , man , how did I end up in this part of history ? Because you know , my great-grandmother lived . She lived to 101 , and I often say you know what's the 100-year cycle I'm living in and what am I seeing ? I'm going , oh , this is not a fun one actually .

Speaker 5 46:32

All the good times have passed . Move it back , please which isn't true .

Speaker 3 46:36

But you know , like it's this sense of oh , all I've got to be is the messenger going hey , it's going down it's getting worse yeah , still getting worse .

Speaker 3 46:44

Folks . You've stuffed up again . You know , oh , here here's something good , because I'm a natural optimist . So here , look at this , but I'm going . Oh man , I wish I didn't have to keep saying the brutal facts , you know .

Speaker 3 46:54

So there's a courage in also doing that , knowing no one thanks you for it . No one . They may need it , but they don't thank you , they don't want you to say it , they don't want to hear it , and what you get is the grief reaction , the very layers of grief when the thing you love is not going as well as you want it to go , and the grief of which comes in the form of denial . So even just yesterday , I had someone tell me about oh , all our key leaders , they really didn't like that thing where you said this thing about that , and I went that's 10 years old . Now , that fact is 10 years old , they're still resisting it .

Speaker 3 47:32

You know , denial is a long river . You know it's's like can you just , yeah , it doesn't move on from that , like , just , you've got to move on , like , but the denial , the bargaining , and then the acceptance , and I and I see it as a grief response often , but I have to keep seeing it as the messenger , because you get attacked . And that's where courage has had to come in for me as well , because , like it's your fault , if you hadn't counted , we would not have felt bad about ourselves and we would not have . Then , you know , um , our organizations would have been fine , and now they're smaller and worse because of you . Like I've had it said to me , it's like you know , yeah , you know it's like .

Speaker 3 48:11

Yeah , it's your fault I'm .

Speaker 5 48:12

Yeah , that's it , I'm going , I'm the messenger data . Yeah , that's it , and . I'm going .

Speaker 3 48:15

I'm the messenger and I have to keep going . I'm okay , I'm okay . I think this is a you problem , you know it's like yeah , it's sounding like the Old Testament prophet stories , isn't it ? How it worked out for the prophet . Yeah , not good . Talk about courage again .

Speaker 5 48:32

yeah , I want to circle back to our multi-ethnic , multicultural cohorts . I think globally , and as well as in our nation , they are a statistically underrepresented group , just in terms of core issues and overall understanding . Right , we sort of talked about some stereotypes there and some perceptions about what we think they are , even though in reality we are an incredibly culturally diverse country and , more specifically , where we're sitting in right now in Asheville , this is almost the nexus of a very highly culturally diverse area . What are some things you know ? When you slice the data up , when you do the NCLS survey , you obviously have different cohorts and you analyse data based on different groups . What are some key things you notice about our Cal churches that they're doing very differently when you compare them like for like for some more typical churches , yeah , that's a really interesting question and one comment would be you have first-generation churches where you have a migrant community who's come and formed a church and then flowing through to second generation as well , which often can be quite different .

Speaker 3 49:54

We've done studies of the vitality of the three groups again mono-ethnic non-Anglo churches , mono-ethnic Anglo churches and multicultural churches or multi-ethnic churches , and what we found is that the most vital , healthy churches are the mono-ethnic non-Anglo churches , and that makes sense . When you go are the mono-ethnic non-Anglo churches , and that makes sense . When you go , you really feel you belong , you know , you really have a sense of your purpose and your clarity of why you're there . Your connection with each other is very strong . So when we come into a survey and go , hey , how are you feeling about church ? They go yes , I love it . You know , this is a really great place for me .

Speaker 3 50:37

Multicultural churches come next and the mono Anglo churches are the least vital and healthy and again , that goes with an older age profile , often smaller churches , and that's part of the challenge at the moment . So we go . These are churches that have high vitality . That's one thing . Something else we've learnt in a multicultural church . No , I'll start with another point .

Speaker 3 51:01

First , we've done a study that shows that when you look at how you pass on faith to others , so how does someone become a person of faith ? The most important , most powerful thing that happens is your household Critical . If your household is one of faith and you watch and learn and see and you grow through being in a household of faith , you are much more likely to become a person of faith yourself . So that's sort of the key pathway . Conversion from a non-faith background is quite difficult . It happens , but it's actually quite difficult . So the role of parents in passing on faith or households in passing on faith is critical . That's where the faith community as well , when you are surrounded by intergenerations who all model what it is to be in a community of faith , is powerful to pass on Taking a village to raise a child right .

Speaker 3 52:01

Exactly exactly . So now we then say , culturally , Anglos often have a culture and Western culture is often very individualistic , so faith is framed individualistically and going . It's my faith , it's my personal relationship with Jesus , that's a Protestant language as well . Right , so you have those sort of flavours . I don't think that serves us well and I think what we have to learn from other cultures is a much more collective approach and it's the collective understanding that we are people of faith . My family , you know , the whole family , comes to faith in the Bible . You know like we , together , we do this and that communal , that collective approach to life and to faith , I think , is a powerful gift that non-Anglo cultures , many non-Anglo cultures , can teach us .

Speaker 3 52:56

So that's a difference . I think that we've got a lot to learn . That's a sort of a worldview thing , I think . The richness , again , of cultural diversity when it comes to symbols and food and dress , that's all the fun stuff .

Speaker 3 53:12

It's lovely and it's a way that we can find a place to meet and enjoy each other , but I think there's those deeper values that we can watch and learn . I know that , for example , we did a study of in terms of passing on faith with that collective understanding . Generally , if you have parents , we asked all the parents in churches where are your kids ? Do your kids go to church still ? So we asked it doesn't matter what age they are , do they go to church still ? And generally , about four in ten of our kids are still in church . If you're a parent in a church , four in ten of our kids .

Speaker 5 53:48

That's across the entire , across everybody .

Speaker 3 53:50

Yep . Compare it to other cultural groups and specifically Asian Australians . Six in ten of their kids are still in church , so they are retaining their own children as part of faith communities better . So I'm going something to learn there , something to watch and learn as sort of different ways of doing life together .

Speaker 5 54:15

Interesting .

Speaker 2 54:17

Fantastic If you were talking

Final Advice for Christian Leaders

Speaker 2 54:21

to a younger Christian leader , a female pastor . I'll give this person a bit of a profile , okay , who's just graduated from theological college in her first church setting and she's wondering what to focus on and she says to you what are the top three questions I need to sit with .

Speaker 2 54:50

So they don't have simple answers , but what are three things and there might be others , but what are three things that come to mind that you think , as a young pastor , young Christian leader in Australia , I need to be thinking about these questions .

Speaker 3 55:05

It's not a cop-out . I'm actually going to take the question somewhere quite different and go . The answers are the same as they've always been . It doesn't matter that she's young or female or it's now . The answers are love God , love each other , love yourself . Great commandment , love . It's like it's not data , but it is data because you can see it in the data . You go , the power of God's love and the power of love to transform and go and love , love the community that you're in , wherever you are . Go and love them , really love them . Use .

Speaker 3 55:41

God's love , but go and love them . Love God and you know , nurture and invest in your relationship with God so that you have the resilience , the sustainability to do what you need to do . So love great commandment and what's going to come next , the Great Commission . Go make disciples . That's what you should be doing . Don't be afraid , don't turn inwards . Have a go . You're okay . You know like it's a sense of go make disciples , this thing that we have , this good news that we have , and also I'd go .

Speaker 3 56:17

What's the good news that you have that you can say to your sister , to your neighbour , to your work colleague , what is the good news that sounds like good news to them , to them , which again is understand your context . Think about , listen to what their hopes and hurts and needs are . Love them enough to do that work and then go share with them what it is to follow Jesus and why Jesus is the centre and you can't . You know , for me again , I've maybe been a bit well , I'm a bit sad about the church at the moment you know , for me again I've maybe been a bit well . I'm a bit sad about the church at the moment .

Speaker 3 57:01

you know , At this stage I'm a bit sad , you know , and I'm going , oh , come on . And it's like we've been telling you , you know , and now it's like I just hope that we seize this time and opportunity and remember , because I don't see the missional action . I see a withdrawn church who's trying now to come back out , but I feel sad , but I go , let's go back back to basics . It's the same as it always was , you know , and I see just that sense of , yeah , how do we love and continue to believe in the vision that Jesus said hey , body of Christ , I've got this great plan for you .

Speaker 3 57:34

Be the body and you've got your part . There's things you do . They'll do other things better than you . You've got your bit . Do what you can and find your place , and this is going to be the best way to live life . This is how abundant life comes . When we do this together , we have a place . And so , young female pastor , go out and make disciples , that is , people who follow the way of Jesus Go . What an extraordinary thing to do .

Speaker 2 58:02

And that is what the curiosity is about out there in the community isn't ?

Speaker 3 58:05

it . Yes , they're there , they're ready and waiting for you . They're lost , they're lonely . The epidemic of loneliness . Life is not okay out there . The need is great and you've got this precious thing like . Nurture it , share it .

Speaker 5 58:22

Wow , Thank you . Thank you so much for that . I think that's a great way to end the podcast . I've got a million more questions about the various researchers , research papers you've written , but I think I'll save my fanboying later . Thank you so much for your time , Ruth .

Speaker 3 58:41

It's been a wonderful conversation very insightful , very all-encompassing , so we appreciate the time you spent with us , thank you . Thanks for inviting me . Great time together .